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Comment by 560322

Now im not 100% sure on this but this seems a bit OP.
Right now as a slightly undergeared pally tank im sitting at 41k unbuffed not stacking stam. So im guessing that fully geared lvl 85's are gonna be sitting close to 100k health fully buffed, according to this tooltip that means that pally tanks are gonna have a bonus 10k AP during a boss fight. (Please correct me if im wrong but thats just what im figuring.) Now does this mean that pally tanks are gonna be OP for MTing, or does this mean that DPS classes are gonna be pulling so much Damage and threat that we need an extra 10k AP just to keep up? if anyone has some insight into this please let me know. =D

edit, fixed a few typo's

Comment by 370896

Im not sure but i dont think this buff stacks. If we say ur a tank with 100k hp. U get a 50k hit 5% of 50k will be 2,5k u get 2,5k AP and will be replaced next time u take dmg. Not 100% sure but i think it will work like that. And paladins is the most unfinished class for cataclysm still.

Comment by Seref

Tank dps sucks compared to pure dps specs, and that just makes getting/holding aggro harder. Blizz has stated that they want to let tanks do more dps, and be more fun. And this also allows tank threat to scale with gear, instead of tank threat slowly losing to the exponentially better dps gear.

And about the 200% damage required, I think its pre-mitigated. Before buffs, talents, armor, blocks, etc...

Comment by footmaster

It is a nice DPS buff but you need to bear in mind that in order for it to max out at 10% you need to take 20 times your health pool in damage. This would not normally happen on anything but boss fights.

For example if you have 60k health you need to take 1,200,000 damage to get the 10% buff.

Comment by IvanIronblade

At 60k health, you need 120.000 damage for the 10% buff.

60 000 x 0,10 = 6 000
120 000 x 0,05 = 6 000

Reasons for Vengeance:

Damage classes/speccs lost agroreducing talents.

Damage classes/speccs use enchants/gems for a damage increase
while Tanks use defensive enchants/gems in order to survive

Tank und damage plate have nearly identical stats (except for doge + parry / crit + haste)

The damage of tanks would be nearly the same all the time while the damage of the raid/party increases. To compensate this all tanks get this talent. I asume it might be overpowered in the beginning but all things change with content progress.

Comment by slayer50513

Cataclysm will be so much fun for my warrior and paladin. I cant wait <3

Comment by 681136

Absorbs DO NOT interfere with vengeance.

Source

Comment by 312381

1. No this will not mean that Pally tanks will be OP since every other tank spec gets the exact same buff. Also meaning that they will not be necessarily troublesome in PvP, any more so than other tank classes. And the only way they can take real advantage of this is if they have a dedicated healer and are in sustained combat.

2. A lot of people generally covered this, but it allows tanks in general to have threat/dmg that scales appropriately with gear. Since looking at the starting dps in naxx, (my hunter pulled 2500ish on boss fights) and tanks usually around 1000dps. Where as endgame Icc, we have people pulling absurd 15k+(6 times what they were) and most tanks arent doing 6k, maybe around 3-4k. Don't come back at this with "nuh uh i can do liek 10k on my ___" because you probably aren't looking at single target dmg and just because one time you maxed out at that doesn't by any means make that your avg.

3. This makes stamina a threat stat too. Looking at the base AP value. currently 3stamina=1str. As a prot pally 1 str*1.05(BoK)*2(str/ap) means adding 2str=4.2AP. Stamina wise, 1stam=10hp. 5%stam from BoK, 15%hp from prot tree, and 1AP from 10 HP. 1stam*1.05bok*10(hp/stam)*1.15(prot tree)*.1(AP/stam)=1.27AP. So since 3stam=2strength on Itembudget, 3stam will give you atleast 3.6AP for the same item cost as 2str which gives 4.2AP. Making gemming stamina in the future like getting to gem stam AND str.

4. In reality, how much AP one class has vs another class is comparing apples to oranges. Hell, comparing how much AP one spec of a class has to another is almost just as vague. Especially now since you have to chose a specialty and are locked from the other tree's. Blizzard could let tanks get 180 AP from one point of stamina and that wouldn't neccisarily make a difference either since it is all about how they convert that AP into whatever spells and abilities. A ret pally could have 500AP and a prot have 5,000. If there is a talent in the ret tree that says "increases dmg with 2 handers by 500%...and/or a base prot passive one that says "does 50% less dmg when tanking" or whatever. Either way, it just allows tanks to scale their threat with gear without having to gem/chant for threat.

Comment by Rankkor

do note that at lower levels (this is obtained as early as lvl 10) you'd need a minimum of 20 damage to proc a +1 AP bonus.

I say this because a warrior friend of mine was leveling as prot at lvl 10, and asked me why she was being hit and not getting vengeance stacks.

at those levels mobs usually hit for 10 damage, or at most 16 damage. Vengeance converts 5% of the damage taken into AP.

taking this into account, a hit that deals 100 damage to you, would grant 5 AP, so a hit that deals 20 damage to you, would grant 1 AP. Any hit that deals less than 20 damage to you won't proc the buff, as that would net you something like 0.2 AP or the like.

Comment by carter

Quote from Ghostcrawler:

A very nice paladin player asked me recently about Vengeance. She had concerns about the mechanic, which made me realize that we haven’t done the best job of explaining to players exactly what Vengeance is supposed to accomplish.

Vengeance is a new passive ability gained by choosing one of the tanking talent trees: Protection for warriors and paladins, Blood for death knights, or Feral for druids. When a tank with one of these talent specs takes damage, she gains an attack power bonus based on the damage taken. This bonus can’t exceed 10% of her health.

Vengeance was designed for a single purpose, which is to make sure tank threat scales as other players improve their gear. Imagine a raid of reasonably geared level-85 characters. In the absence of Vengeance, the tank might generate about 50% of the damage of a DPS character. With the tank’s threat modifiers this should be sufficient for her to generate enough threat to keep her targets stuck to her (unless something unusual is going on in the encounter). The problem is that in later tiers the mages and rogues in the raid accumulate gear that continues to increase their damage, while the tank chooses gear that increases her survivability. Tanks will pick up some threat stats along the way, but as their survival is almost always a necessary condition for victory, they choose gear accordingly. In later tiers, instead of doing 50% of the damage of a DPS class, the tank might start to slip to 30% or less of a DPS character's damage. Now threat becomes an issue. Threat needs to be an important part of the game -- I’ll try to explain why we think so in a future blog. However, it isn’t our design intent for threat generation to get much harder in the third tier of content relative to the first.

So that’s what Vengeance is supposed to be. Here is what it’s not supposed to be. Vengeance is not supposed to solve the threat problem completely. A tank shouldn’t be able to just auto-attack and let Vengeance do the rest. Vengeance isn’t a replacement for the tank generating enough initial threat to get the targets to stick to her. She shouldn’t need to rely on Vengeance in the first six seconds of combat. It’s there to prevent the warlock from slowly creeping up on her threat in the middle of the fight. (If this has never happened to your raid, it’s possible that the huge threat transfer potential of the rogue Tricks of the Trade and hunter Misdirection masked how dicey threat really was for you, but those abilities were redesigned for Cataclysm.) In fact, you shouldn’t need Vengeance at all in the first couple of tiers of Cataclysm content. If a lucky dodge streak causes Vengeance to fall off, and that means that you can’t generate enough threat, then either our numbers aren’t tuned correctly, or you need to L2tank.

Vengeance also isn’t supposed to make you scared to attack a tank in PvP. Tanks have enough benefits in PvP, such as being hard to kill and control, especially in Cataclysm when Rated Battlegrounds provide them with a role where they can defend flags or towers. Players generally don’t hit hard enough to trigger the full effect of Vengeance, unless they are all ganging up on one tank, at which point someone in the group should have the ability to dispel it (Vengeance is treated as an Enrage effect for dispel purposes).

Vengeance is a new mechanic, and like many design changes, it may take some tweaking to get right. Maybe it takes too long to stack up or falls off too easily. Maybe it does too much of the tank’s job for her and ends up producing a generation of lazy tanks. Threat is a tricky thing to balance. If it’s too easy to maintain, then the tank isn’t having fun. If it’s too hard to maintain, then nobody is having fun.

Believe it or not, we want tanking to be fun.

-Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the Lead Systems Designer for World of Warcraft and once killed a dinosaur with a spreadsheet.

Comment by Lindentree

Vengeance has been confirmed to cap not at 10% of health, but at raw stamina + 10% of base health.

Source.

Comment by 195614

Was playing some wc3 and giggled when Uther said this: "Remember , Arthas, we are paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the orc." Oops!

SOURCE

Comment by 631630

Vengeance allowed me to two man Ignis the Furnace Master in 10 Uld as a Prot Warrior with a holy paladin in mostly heroic 346 gear, was pulling 21k dps by the end, shockwaves hitting for over 100k non crit. GFG. Thanks Vengeance! :)

Comment by Ganbantein

Vengeance acts as a enrage effect for all tank classes and can be shived off by rogues

Comment by Tartonga

It can be dispelled by a rogue's Shiv, making tanks unable to gain Vengeance for around 10 seconds.

Comment by QuickBASIC

Can be removed with Enrage removing abilities:
Soothe Druid
Tranquilizing Shot Hunter
Shiv Rogue

Useful for PvP "tanks".

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Vengeance

Vengeance

Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health.

Spell Details

Duration

n/a

School

Physical

Mechanic

n/a

Dispel type

n/a

GCD category

n/a

Cost

None

Range

0 yards (Self)

Cast time

Instant

Cooldown

n/a

GCD

0 seconds

Aura proc chance

100%

Effect #1

Apply Aura: Dummy
Value: 6
PVP Multiplier: 1
Server-side script
Affected Spells:

	Divine Protection		Divine Shield		Righteous Defense
	Taunt Flag Targeting		Taunt Flag Targeting

Effect #2

Apply Aura: Modifies Threat (2)
Value: -99%
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

	Word of Glory

Flags

Is Ability
Passive spell
Can be used while mounted
Can be used while sitting
Not an Action
Suppress Caster Procs
Does not engage target
Can Proc From Procs
Can Proc From Suppressed Target Procs
Not In Spellbook Until Learned

Vengeance

Buff

Spell Details

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