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Comment by 12160

Finally, a fix to make vanish reliably work!

Comment by Archdmon

This ability is obviously meant for use with the Sub/Dagger improvements Blizzard made. However, it might still not be worth using that way. Being able to keep a caster/healer locked out through garrote/cheapshot alternation seems fairly powerful.

Comment by 176329

not so sure about that arch, it would hurt your fight more than it would help, if you went CS/gar/CS, then your kidney shot would be worthless. and gar/CS/gar would be stupid because it would refresh the bleed damage of garrote. no, considering an earlier talent in the sub tree "slaughter from the shadows" which reduces ambush and backstab damage, coupled with shadowstep, and improved ambush, it would tear anything a new one. sub rogues....the new and improved 2 minute mage. kill, go make noodles, eat noodles, kill, repeat...

Comment by 11715

Very cool hability for dagger rogues willing to destroy single targets.

Just imagine this aganist a mage: (from stealth) Garrote / Shadow Dance (vanish) / Cheap Shot / SD vanish / Ambush / SD vanish / Ambush

If your enemy is no mage, even better - you can skip the initial Garrote! :)

And the cool part is - the builds Ambush and Backstab are very potent even without Shadow Dance, so you can use vanish/preparation while this is not ready.

edit: Changed my mind about the skill.

Comment by BoddAH

According to the spell mechanics description, this will just « spam » Vanish three times at a 3 second interval. Seeing how Vanish is bugged, and considering the fact that you will not even directly control those vanishes, I see a lot of frustration coming from this talent…

Comment by 131545

and also considering u have stealth after stealth every 3 secs will u have enough energy? cause shadow dance whont stop its timer when u ae stealthed (or so i think), meaning if u use SD and the next tick catches u in stelth it will just skip it, and using abilityes like ambush garote and so take A LOT OF ENERGY... if the talent remains the same i think i will go for combat or just do some hibryd build rather thatn subtilety for main

Comment by 162664

180 energy to do four ambushes if SotS, you'd recover the 80 during 9 sec for sure.

And uh...

...guys?

What happens when you use it on a mob?

Comment by 179297

You all seem to be missing a Vanish. The tooltip says "Instantly enter stealth... For 9 sec you will reenter stealth every 3 sec secs."
The way I read this is you Vanish as soon as you use the ability (at 0 secs), then re-Vanish at 3 secs, 6 secs, and 9 secs. You really get 4 Vanishes out of this, not 3.

Comment by 103436

This tallent is awesome.

The key to this tallent is being able to get off 4(four) Ambushes on a single target or a real way keeping them pretty much stunned. This actualy puts rogues back where they should be as caster killers..

Here is how this "can" work:

Premed/Shadowstep to your target.
Ambush then Kidneyshot, Hemo, Hemo (This should hold them for about 4 to 5 secs of stun and get 2 more CPs)
Pop Shadowdance quickly, then Cheap Shot again. (watch your energy this should give you 5 to 6 secs of stun).
After reenetering SD again, come out with a Ambush quickly and Hemo, Hemo,
Reenter SD, pop Cheaphot again, Hemo Hemo.
Finally last reenter of SD, pop 1 last Ambush and pop Kidneyshot or Evis or what ever you wish.. You pretty much destroyed your target at this point.. If they are still alive after all this. RUN

Cheers,
Exo

Comment by 103436

If 7 Ambushes can't kill your target, then you shouldn't be fighting a Resto Druid in the first place. :O

so so true!

Comment by 46845

I really doubt this spell is going to work how so many of you seem to think it will/hope it will, were talking about the sub tree here.. took them nearly 3years to get the tree almost right.

I personally see this as their fix to vanish being broken, instead of just spending some time and fixing it, they make it a 51spell. -running away from hunter you vanish arcane shot hits you, vanish is removed.. either try to kill hunter, die or prep/vanish and hope it works.. now sub rogues will have a shorter vanish i think? 2mins.. you vanish hunters shot removes it 3secs later you vanish again and are able to get away.

really believe this is their fix, i hope its not and it can be used the way so many people are hoping it can be used, but really were talking about blizzard and rogues.. i'll cross my fingers but not getting my hopes up.

if you love ambushing sub is your tree now, but i really think mutilate will be the winner now, but i've be enjoying summer and haven't touched WoW or read about it til now.. so hears to blizzard and proving me wrong! /crosses fingers

Comment by 104026

Here's what I see happening:

Premeditation->Shadowstep ->pause for full energy->garrote->kidney shot->shadow dance (vanish)-> cheap shot->stealth->ambush->stealth->ambush->kidney shot
the change in energy mechanics is really helpful here.

you have 30 energy regen in between each stealth attack, SO the closer you can start to 100 the better it might even be worth it to blow premeditation before your garrote so you can kidney shot before you start shadow dancing, giving yourself time to regen 40 (max 50) energy before you start burning through your energy.

garrote+kidney shot is 75 energy, but you'll regen 15 energy before you can even use kidney shot, and then you'll have 3-4 combo points if you've used premed, giving you 40 or 50 more energy before you have to shadow dance. If you wait 2 seconds into the first stealth, you'll be at full energy.

cheap shot + regen time = 70 energy... ambush + regen time after that takes you to 55 energy, another ambush will take you to 10 energy, you might have time to regen for a final kidney shot before you vanish for the last time, leaving your target helpless for you to do whatever you want.

of course, if you don't regen enough to pull a kidney shot before that last vanish (or if you aren't a belf rogue/don't have any energy tea) you can always back off and sap your target.

Comment by 67455

Any bets on how long it takes before this skill is taken off preparation? I bet it won't make it into release as resettable by prep.

Comment by wye43

As a sub rogue, I would love to toy around with this skill, but when I'm looking back at the humongous history of vanish issues - even now more than 50% of vanishes fail out of my control, I believe they made a wrong design choice. If this talent stays like this, it will be a toy, not anything useful. And as all thinks you cannot rely, it will cause more frustration than reward.

They are getting too close to the latency limit already. They are getting out of ideas, so they start repeating skills.

And to add even more salt on this wound, I bet that they will increase the CD to at least 10 min. Don't even dream of prep. If you believe that marketing Wotlk doesn't have anything to do with this think again.

And to end on a positive note, making sure your enemy looses the target on you every 3 seconds may worth speccing into this once for fun.

Cheers!

Comment by 63872

personaly as a warrior i fear this skill 3 abushes and or cheap shots and whatever else you can throw in in 3 stealths i mean 3 ambushes not counting the fact that 1 of them will mostly crit makes me dead within 9 secs. Not to mention if your fighting a boss you pop this and hit 3 ambushes on him and watch his health drop at least 5% (guesstamation) not to mention wotlk gear boosting the size of the numbers you all will see *shivers*

Comment by 103436

I am beta testing WotLK and so far trying out shadow step isnt as easy. From the start when you use it you will get the initial vanish, then 3 more every 3 secs to follow. Giving you 4 total vanishes off this tallent.
Now when using the tallent it will proc every 3 secs even if you are still stealthed.
My first thought is you would have been able to get off 3 additional ambushes. But you are still starved for energy tryin to do that.. But you may still get off another cheapshot to keep them stuned until you are able to get off another ambush or two.

I will post more on this when I have had time ot play around with it and actualy dual other players instead of pve mobs.

Cheers,
Exo

Comment by 167404

Dagger Rogues are back.

Not sure how it works with resil but the ability to get a total possible 6 ambushes on a single target seems pretty devastating, especially when you assume each one will crit.

1st Ambush -> Shadow Dance -> Ambush All 3 Times -> Vanish -> 5th Ambush -> Preparation -> Vanish Again -> Sixth Ambush

It may be a waste of Flash Powders and Cooldowns, but damn, what a way to kill someone.

Comment by 187610

shadow Dance redesigned, now allows the use of Sap, Garrote, Ambush, Cheap Shot, Premeditation, Pickpocket and Disarm Trap regardless of being stealthed. Those abilities all gain a cooldown of 2 sec. Lasts 10 sec.

http://www.worldofraids.com/news/276.html

Comment by 134700

blizz idea of making sub daggers good
"LAWL MILLION AMBUSHES!" ... and i love it xD

Comment by 117477

In my opinion this works in conjunction with all the other new dagger spec talents, the reduced energy cost on ambush makes it possible to ambush every vanish without having to wait as long, plus with waylay your opponent wont be as quick to react and of course Vigor in the assassination tree is in the third row combined with a full glad set that's 120 energy, that is assuming Blizz doesn't decide to change the set bonuses. I'm really loving this new and improved dagger spec, even with resilience you're still gonna be able to take down prot pallies with this spec, and most casters will be a joke. It may take a few cool downs but id say its well worth it.

Edit: Spelling

Comment by 70784

This new spell makes Rogues a very dangerous enemy indeed. The experienced rogues know exactly what I mean by not having to cast Vanish in mid fight to land a cheap shot now. This is going to be extremely useful to rogues.

The stun lock could be crazy now with this new spell. Picture this.

You are already stealthed.

/cast Cheap shot, hemo, hemo, hemo, kidney shot, hemo, hemo, hemo, Rupture or Expose armor

THEN

/cast Shadow dance, Garrote, Cheap shot, hemo, hemo, hemo Eviscerate

Hell ya!

Comment by bkevol

allows more excellent stunlock abillities. sure alot of hype about this one.... wondering how many cheap shot/ambush/kidney shot combos can be completed with this. theres probably an endless list of possible combos. worth trying to master imo
i may just have to switch from combat swords to sub spec. looks cool

Comment by 179440

Screw stunlock, daggerstorm is born!

Comment by Muffinsofdeath

Get Initiative with this spell and rack up more combo points then you have room for.

Gives you a 100% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

And notice " Those abilities each gain a cooldown of 2 sec. Lasts 10 sec."

Saying you use Ambush : it goes on 2second CD.
While the other spells are still usable during the CD.

Comment by 225851

This may seem like a stupid question, but from what i understand all this ability does is remove the requirement of stealth to use your normally stealth only abilities correct? since this includes sap does that mean you can sap someone who is combat? because i find it hard to believe a rogue that is not in stealth can run up to someone and sap them before they see them coming and engaged in combat.

Comment by arkstok

holy.... Premeditation dont have a energy cost thats 2 free points every 2 secs, considering you are deep in ambush spec you will have 3 points almost every ambush, thats like 5 point every 2 secs.
This %^&* on PVE can be awesome too you can stack expose armor, Rupture, Slice n Dice in no time, and if you have garrote on the target thats nasty

with this talent you can really make Combos and combo breakers

Comment by 52390

From the tooltip, I think it's safe to assume that Master of Deception won't apply during the Shadow Dance, but has anyone actually tested this?

Comment by wye43

There are a few things to consider:

1 second global cooldown
fight takes time
10 energy regen every second

Imagination vs pragmatism, I dare you!
I leave the full time line graphic to the next lucky "+5 insightful" poster.

Comment by bladewarriors

Blizzard made a typo!
''Garrotte''

Comment by 54514

My advice for making this less unweildy to use:

/cast Shadow Dance
/swapactionbar 1 2

This macro casts Shadow Dance and swaps the action bar from 1 to 2 if you are on your action bar 1. This lets you load action bar 2 up with Ambush, Cheapshot, Garrote, etc for easy access during Shadow Dance.

I have a second macro that is just:

/swapactionbar 1 2

On my action bar 2 to allow me to swap back to action bar 1 after Shadow Dance is over.

Hope that helps.

It swaps action bars now!

Comment by 89697

im new at being a sub specc'd rogue, if i try to get this talent at lvl 70, i would have to give up close quarters combat.
will it be worth giving up for this?

Comment by 235677

well the talent has been changed so first of all you need to bind your stealth bar outside stealth because you won't enter stealth it'll just let you use the abilities so well I agree in the part with the CC since I dont have daggers but if I had daggers I for sure would go CS for holding opponent, then Ambush , then garrote , and KS they've removed the cooldown so the only cooldown you got is actually your energy

Comment by 51248

This should be an all the time thing instead of an ability.
I mean it's not even close to the usefullness of killing spree.

Sub needs something once we hit 80 cause it's supremely weak in pvp atm.

It could work, but sub would need more viability in the way that combat has viability if something doesn't work.

I mean ambush misses, cheapshot gets resisted, but combat has the undodgable I win button of killing spree.

It's an interesting idea and much better than it was but it still needs integration into the sub tree. It seems more like a 41 point ability.

Here is an Idea, how about at 51 points let ambush, and backstab not require to be behind the target.

It would stop ppl from being able to backwards walk out of death.

Comment by bladewarriors

Like

Shadow Intuition

Your Ambush and Cheap Shot abilities no longer requires you to be in stealth and your Backstab ability can also be used in front of the target, in addition those abilities each gain a cooldown of 3 seconds''

5 seconds is fine too.

Comment by Squeel

Just a question, Does this bring up the same bar you have as when you are stealthed or to use this effectively would i have to put all my openers on my action bar instead of my stealth bar?

Comment by 123301

After last patch - 5 ambushes in 10 seconds. Sounds and really is more than delicious.
With Glyph of Ambush you can 5 shot a warrior being out of his range.

I love to use it together with ChS on pallies and wars.
Stealth-Premed-Ambush-KS-ShD-Ambush-ChS-Ambush-ChS-Ambush. Requires lots of energy but can be made.

Also this is one of the best skills for chasing FCs in WSG or EOS. Just ShS-ShD and Ambush to death.

Comment by 251167

The only things i wish for this skill was to be used while in stealth, yea seems kinda of dumb but i like to save this for raid mobs, boss fight and raid bosses, and the chance in pve when im getting attacked by another wandering mob and im barely alive.

When i read that you could use premeditation too i just thought of all the crazy things i could do but sadly when you use premed it already has its 20 sec CD

Comment by hemek

You will definitly need to create a macro that switches to 2nd Action Bar or this Dance will be more useless then Stephen Hawkin doing the Tango.....OHHH NO HE DIDN'T!

Comment by 271183

So I was reading the new 3.1 patch notes and immediately the theorycrafting started.

We all know 99% of rogues are Mutilate specced for PvP, atm. But the question is, which path are we going to go when the changes go live? I'm looking at every tree right now -- including Mutilate, because who knows, maybe it'll still be the strongest spec to PvP with despite the buffs.

We have to keep in mind a few things as we decide what the best spec will be when we resume our arena matches, and that means looking at how other classes have been changed. Know thy enemy!

20.0.51, Vigor+ShStep
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=00000000000000000000000000003053001050000000000000000005300232130302121350135001251&glyph=140518010206&version=9614

Think of this as Season 4 Shadowstep...for WotLK. I know some rogues right now might spec for Cold Blood+Prep, but Shadow Dance is getting fixed so blaming our UI is not an excuse, and we can and should use the ability for maximum playstyle flexibility.

Now the main strengths with this spec over 41.5.25 might be obvious if you have a good handle on your class:

There is one thing left though that concerns me, and it's the future of DK/Holy Pally match-ups. Reading up on the new DK changes, staying at bay from these guys to kill the holy paladin will seem easier to do than as mutilate. Their survivabilty has gone way up, with the new blood changes, and the ghouls are getting more dangerous if they go unholy. While frost has a more powerful snare(45% up from 30%) on Chill Blains now, I don't think any DK can kill a rogue faster as this spec when comparing them to the other two trees. Now the question is, can a rogue kill a holy pally faster as Shstep than Mutilate? This we'll have to see, but my hopes are high.

Comment by 316211

rofl... ok so i got confused by the discription. now i get, it so your basicly invisble... and your enemy is getting attacked from out of no where.... a bit one sided isn't it? can't hit what ya can't see. heh heh. does it make you completely invisible or just slightly invisible like stealth? and i'm pretty sure it's like an on and off type of thing while it's on. basicly your comming in and out of stealth for like a few seconds at a time... correct me if i'm wrong but i think thats what i saw here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YE6Jga_8ho

Comment by Malvard

if their gonna make it like it is now, rather than re entering stealth. they need to allow you to use abilities that require you to be stealthed and behind, from in front

Because its impossible to get behind a mob, at least, u cant do it efficiently / fast enoguh to be of any use for this talent.

Comment by Malvard

If you wish shadow dance were more like it was at first (re stealthing)
try ths

GHETTO SHADOW DANCE

Stealth
Premed
Shadow step!
Ambush!
Eviscerate!
Vanish!
Preperation!
Ambush!
Vanish!
Ambush!
Shadowstep
Eviscreate!

lolpwned
:D

Comment by Malvard

If they are going to let Mutilate rogues attack from infront, they need to at LEAST let you sue ambush from in front during shadow dance, its practically useless in PvE when your fighting a mob by yourself, because unlike fighting players, its impossible to get "Behind" a mob without stunning/incapacitating it.

If you ask me stance dancing was a better idea, yet The exact spell that was sued in beta had wasn't good tho,
perhaps give Vanish a 3 sec CD during the spell's duration, and work in a mechanic so mobs wont reset immediately after a vanish.

In fact mob resetting in general needs to be worked on, the Evading as they run back, resisting every spells, messing up cool downs, Instant hp Regen, etc.

Comment by 174212

maybe i am rubbish but from my opinion when shadow dance had effect:
You reenter stealth every X seconds(i dont remeber). was better

Comment by 340556

does ambush (while affected by this ability) receive the bonus from the ''Lethality'' talent?

Comment by 361839

bad again that you dont have how to waste your CP and there're even more with Honor Among Thieves

Comment by 131361

From Worldofwarcraft.com 3.2 patch notes "Shadow Dance: Cooldown reduced to 1 minute. Now lasts 6 seconds, down from 10 seconds" and "Glyph of Shadow Dance: Now increases the duration of Shadow Dance by 2 seconds, down from 4 seconds."

Comment by 46237

On picking up this talent it will appear next to your Stealth button. On activating Shadow Dance, a new action bar will appear in the same manner as when you activate Stealth.

Unfortunately this action bar is empty and you have 6 seconds to populate it with ability buttons before waiting another 1 minute to repeat the process. I recommend gathering all the spells you want to include on the action bar above so you don't hunt through the spell book for them.

Comment by 430418

to customize the shdance actionbar:
1-take an empty action bar
2-fill it with the spells of bottom right action bar
3-put the spells you want on your shdance action bar on the now empty bottom right Action bar
4-click shadowdance
5-quickly draw spells down from bottom right action bar to shadowdance action bar
6-shadowdance ends
7-put back the spells of your bottom right action bar from the main bar

remember to unlock bars

Comment by matoh

why do they include Pickpocket here?

you dont pickpocket when you want to kill your enemy fast..

Comment by 487963

The most useful is to pickpocket some mobs using shadow dance while you're in combat =D

Comment by vic6string

I have pickpocket macro'ed into ambush, sap, and cheap shot, and you'd be amazed how much more gold you can generate without even having to hit a button.

Comment by Carlotta

Resilience and especialy armor is the issue for a Sublety Rogue. Able to dish out immense physical damage in short time. But falls behind in damage for longer sessions. Now that Shadow dance is on a 1minute cooldown, it can help. A trinket could be in the way, its not that uncommon for a rogue to have Kidney Shot on a cooldown and then blow Shadow dance in hope to put pressure with Cheap and ambush spam. By Sublety being so effected by armor, plate targets are having a huge advantage on a rogue. But even if the healer is the rogue's only target will <he/she> kill it? Considering the large amount of resilience and especialy armor each and every healer has, nowadays. The question remains of Shadow Dance can be played, but the amount of Rogues chosing the path of Shadow Dance are very very scarse.

Comment by vic6string

Well I have been playing Shadowdance for a while, and I can say the damage you can do in the first 10 seconds of a fight is sick! Premed, ambush, KS (5cp), shadowdance, ambush, ambush, cheapshot, pool energy, gouge, backstab, blind, evis, vanish and start over. And the crit rate for the ambushes is sick... i get about 75-80% crits on my ambushes for over 6k apiece. That said, once you get past that initial bombardment, you are relegated to keeping up your slice and dice while backstabbing. With a good tank on something like normal ToC, I can keep up big numbers, but on longer fights, you just watch your dps drop by the second. Plus, it really gets to be a pain in the butt that you have to always worry about being behind your target. It is hard enough sometimes sorting out WHO your target is, much less whether or not you are behind them. Just because of that alone I am strongly considering switching to mutilate/prep.

Comment by Lucid

Imagine the possibilities of traps you could disarm, or people you could pickpocket during this 6 second opener!

Comment by 258282

Does not trigger Master of Subtlety which is a real damn shame.

Ozuna Clan does not approve.

Comment by 549030

see alot of ppl choosing assa spec because sdance has cd, it's only for 1 min ffs!

Comment by Siesta

Amazing!
Every one minute I can pickpocket people out of stealth for 6 SECONDS!
Insane to the membrane!

Comment by raymix

breaks stealth

Comment by 228334

The following quote is taken from a comment on hunter's Deterrence.

This ability does not work against attacks from stealth, i.e. against Cheap Shot. Also it does not work while hunter is stunned. Deterrence->Vanish->CheapShot->Release Spirit. So do not let rogue to restealth.

I have two things to ask.

If a rogue activates Shadow Dance and uses Cheap Shot on a hunter with Deterrence up, does it count as an attack from stealth, thereby removing the chance to have the Cheap Shot getting dodged, parried or blocked?

And if a warrior uses Charge on a hunter with Deterrence up, will the stun be deflected?

I will re-post this on the Shadow Dance's comments as well.

Comment by 203940

sap, most annoying thing at rogues...

Comment by 156183

on 60 target dummy (clothy armor equivalent) i get 4 ambushes for 36,547 total (4 crits) and 1 eviscerate for 9089 (crit) w/ this. Is that the best damage it can do or should i be using it differently for damage? Sometimes eviscerating would be better since it costs 10 energy after the refund, I think that blizz should add a +75% chance to crit on eviscerate to the end of the tree then it would be worth using over ambush at 5 points and damage outside of shadow dance would still be interesting, lol.

Comment by 128588

The hardest thing about the ability is setting up the bar in the 6 second window once you get it. Quite annoying.

Comment by Hanz0

yes kylex ur doing it bad. betwen the ambushes u need to get a 5cp rupture on as it costs no energy with the refund.

Comment by Salazans

To anyone wanting to make a macro, this works as condition.

Hope that saves a few people from wasting time trying to figure it out like I did.

Comment by Allakhazam

Is it worth getting?
Not sure if i should go this far in sub

Edited, Feb 12th 2009 8:22pm by Skeezeanator

Links

Shadow Dance

Shadow Dance

Talent

Instant	1 min cooldown

Enter the Shadow Dance for 6 sec, allowing the use of Sap, Garrote, Ambush, Cheap Shot, Premeditation, Pick Pocket, and Disarm Trap regardless of being stealthed.

Buff

Spell Details

Duration

6 seconds

School

Physical

Mechanic

n/a

Dispel type

n/a

GCD category

n/a

Cost

None

Range

0 yards (Self)

Cast time

Instant

Cooldown

1 minute

GCD

0 seconds

Effect #1

Apply Aura: Allow Affected Spells to be Used in Any Stance (0)
Value: 1
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

Garrote	Pick Pocket	Cheap Shot
Disarm Trap	Sap	Ambush
Premeditation

Effect #2

Apply Aura: Shapeshift (Shadow Dance)
Value: 1
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

	Cheap Shot

Flags

Is Ability
Cannot be used while shapeshifted
Do Not Sheath
Generates no threat
No AutoCast (AI)
Not In Spellbook Until Learned

Shadow Dance

Buff

Spell Details

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