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Comment by 176329

a rogue with this talent is going to /love mutilate rogues and cat druids in their groups. so many crits....

Comment by misinformed

Currently says the same on all three ranks of the talent.

"When anyone in your group critically hits with a damage or healing spell or ability, you have a 100% chance to gain a combo point on your current target."

Will likely be a 33% chance per rank with 100% on rank 3. I'm sure somebody will catch this an update it soon though.

Comment by 94367

When it says "anyone from your group" does it mean even the rogue? party or raid?

if it works even just for my rogue (with no party that is) with 38% crit chance i don't think i'll ever use my hemorrhage. I'll just eviscerate and rupture all the time :D

and come to think how much aggro you 'll get with this in raids. Just use slice&dice for deadly poison procs and envenom for maximum damage.

BB combat. with full combo points you won't need more attack speed and energy. Just AP!

Comment by MonkeyPower

There is somekinda bug in talent tree atm. All levels of this talent give 100% chance atm.^^

Comment by 183547

Does anyone knows if it works on Pet crits aswell?

Comment by 177532

This talent alone will make sure that you bring 5 subtlety-specced rogues in the same group - that many procs will ensure that ALL the rogues have a continuous chain of 5-point finishers. I think this may be subject to a nerf very soon.

Comment by caleb21

It says spells and abilities so i dont think you will get a combo point from normal melee attacks. Basically its a better sealed fate because it will give you point on all abilities and not just ones that give a combo point already, plus points from other party member crits.

Very good ability, when you shadow dance you wont be able to use your points up fast enough when you get 3 from each ambush. Trying to decide what i'll use besides kidney shot and rupture. slice n dice, expose armor, envenom (since i wont need crip poison thanx to waylay) or just good old eviscerate

Comment by Calda

Say a shaman crits with WF. Would it give 2combo points then?

Comment by 12909

You get a gfx effect under you and the target.

On the 3.0.2 PTR it works with your own autoattack crits, albeit not always, no group needed. It's very irregular. Since the tooltip lists only abilities I'd guess that it's currently bugged on the PTR.

edit: in the latest beta build (8962) it's not working off autoattack crits anymore but it consistently adds a combopoint after your own ability crits. So it's basically like sealfate, just even better in groups.

Comment by Nippur

Does anyone knows if this also aplies for a Raid?
If it does, the rogue will have 5 CP every 5 secs!, plus the ones he gets on his own.
I've been playing a rogue for 2 years now. I am pretty sure this will get nerfed.

Comment by 83139

yes it does work on pet crits

Comment by Abomb

in raids and AVs just ask the leader to put u in a grp with other rogues and there will be combo points flooding in faster than the GCD will allow for all of your grp kudos :)

Comment by 118577

Here's a video clip of me using an Honor Among Thieves spec in Sunwell while fighting Kil'jaeden.

Clip is only 2 minutes long, but it shows how fast you can generate combo points. I'm able to beat both my mutilate and combat dps with this spec, granted that the people in my group don't die.

http://files.filefront.com/Cloviandra+HaT+Demonstratnmp4/;12320472;/fileinfo.html

Comment by 223192

Does this stack with Seal Fate? Specifically is it possible to spec 27/0/44 or 28/0/43 getting 3/3 Honor Among thieves and 2/5 or 3/5 Seal fate and generate 3 combo points from a single Hemo crit?

Comment by 142921

https://www.wowhead.com/cata/spell=51701 + https://www.wowhead.com/cata/spell=14164 + https://www.wowhead.com/cata/spell=48668 = 5k DPS =WIN

Comment by 268138

Just to clarify some things about HaT...

To review, the HaT bug only occurs when other HaT rogues are in your group. This bug allows you to obtain more combo points then should be allowed.

Without abusing the bug you will basically get 1 combo point every time someone in your party (not an entire raid but party) crits with no more then 1 combo point per second. So, if two other group members crit at the same time you only get one point because of that 1 second claus.

Abusing HaT bug this is currently the best rogue spec for PvE, with another rogue or two in the group you can basically spam eviscerate while keeping just SnD up. This bug will be fixed by Blizzard in the future, most likely soon.

However, this build can still do some decent DPS without abusing the bug. You just need to play smart, and get grouped with the right people. Right now I can usually cling onto a #2 DPS spot in Naxx, Sarth, and Maly, only to be beat out by a hunter in full T7 and all Naxx gear. When people say this is not a viable spec after bug fix they are wrong, you just need to play a bit smarter. This means, watch your energy, keep SnD and Rupture up at all times, have 5 stacks of Deadly Poison on at all times, and when that is all set up I can get 2-3 five point evis's out before I need to refresh anything.

Blizzard put HaT in sub for a reason, to make it a new PvE spec, obviously they did not intend for a bug meaning that its meant to be a viable spec working as it should. Rogues, being as nerfed as they are anyways, will find the specs to work out somewhat like...

Bugged HaT > Mutilate > Combat Swords

or

Mutilate > HaT (no bug) > Combat Swords.

So you can see, there is balancing to be done by Blizz. However, if you wanna play HaT how it was intended to be played you will find yourself popping nice evis crits, having a higher AGI/AP then the average rogue in equal gear, and having more utility then other rogues.

Only confusion I really have about HaT is whether you should be using SS or Hemo. Backstab seems out of the question because most rougues dont wanna spec to far into sub to get it to cost 45 energy, but then again, I don't know.

https://www.wowhead.com/cata/talent=fhxb0xZ0gVZxMfdhhzdAzic

My current spec, I lack two good daggers as of now but again, I still do nice damage with just swords. Suggestions are welcome because i'm sure I can make that spec better.

Comment by 314543

edit: nevermind

Comment by acetabularius

Wow! A improved version of seal fate and only for 3 points! Sub tree has become something like prebc assassination dagger spec! Especially with 45 energy backstabs!

Comment by UKmonkey9

Works if your dueling, have a party member go crit on some boars or something and you'll get combo points.

Comment by 325248

This talent is an insult to all non-rogues since when is everybody considered a thief

Comment by 297809

I have been using this spec for a little while now, currently I have found that in practice you get much higher dps from honor among thieves by using a slow main hand like a fist weapon and using hemo in place of backstab. Using less energy is key to keeping the combo points rolling in 25 man raids. I still have 3 pieces of quest gear and 2 heroic pieces. I still need ~50-60 more hit rating and I am 6/6 expertise, right now I am pulling 3.3k dps single target, which is about equal in total dmg to some of our best mages and paladins single target dps that we raid with. So I am excited to see what replacing my lv 75 gear will do to my dps.

Hope some other people try this amazing spec out (and yeah the rotation of abilities is complicated and just improving the rotation upped my dps by about 700).

Comment by 43387

This is fairly nice talent, with 3 points, your Abilities give you 1 combo point, which mean that with decent crit % you get those quite often, and with Relentless Strikes you will get 25 energy every so often, so you can keep hitting fairly much.
I am not yet certain that does this work for finishing moves or not, however I have seen ambush to give bonus point from this.

When you combine this with shadow dance and decent gear, you got quite burst potential if you know how to control it.

Comment by Jigain

In a raid, does this talent

A) Proc from any raid member?
B) Proc from any raid member that is in your group?
C) Proc only from your own attacks?
D) Not proc at all?

Comment by 183705

the LOL part is that it proc from Instant Poison criticals, 20/0/51 would be amazing solo farming build ;D

Comment by 385742

Abit off-topic, but in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, a khajjiit gives you a book named "Honor Among Thieves" as an invitation to join the Thieves guild :)

Comment by 15688

This gives you a chance to gain a combo point while using Fan of Knives, if at least one hit crits. (And considering you'll be using it in multiple enemies scenarios, and that each target has two chances to crit, it's very likely to score at least one crit)

Comment by specterk

After extensive testing to verify my initial impressions, I've discovered that HaT *WILL* proc (on crits) from all of the following:
- Poisons (Verified: Instant Poison and Wound Poison)
- Weapon proc enchants (Verified: Fiery, Crusader heals, Deathfrost, Lifestealing heals)
- On-hit effects (Verified: Mark of Conquest heals, Lightning Capacitor (just for fun, since poison crits proc it))
- On-use effects (Verified: Goblin Dragon Gun, Goblin Rocket Launcher)
- Buffs: (Verified: Thorns, Earth Shield heals)

Comment by specterk

Wanted to post the results of some more interesting tests, as this ability actually changes the mechanics of solo rogue dps relative to weapon speed significantly. Specifically, sub builds with this talent see *additional* significant dps gains by using slower weapons rather than a fast one in BOTH main hand and off hand slots.

NOTE: most of this is only applicable to solo play, as sub builds still can't compete with combat/mut in raid environments, and in any group HaT will always be performing at maximum output regardless of your weapon speed anyway.

Basically, if you're wasting any combo points, none of the following matters (at least not in a way related to HaT; you still see greater returns on all (non-deadly) poison damage over time with slower weapons of equivalent dps, because of SnD/haste - but that has nothing to do with this talent). If you are grinding, or in any other situation where you can control your combo-point generation, it matters a lot.

Obviously these all apply only to effects which can proc from melee combat, and assume that the DPS value of the weapon is fixed regardless of speed.

Group 1 - For effects which are (exclusively)
A) crit-capable,
B) either PPM-based *and/or* with a fixed internal cooldown,
--> slower offhand = higher dps from said abilities.

Group 2 - For effects which are (exlusively)
A) crit-capable,
B) fixed % chance on hit with NO internal cooldown,
--> faster offhand = higher dps from said abilities.

Using any abilities from group 1 with a weapon speed from group 2, or vice versa, will decrease your potential dps gain from that specific ability and thus, your potential gain from HaT. You took the talent - might as well get your money's worth, right? =)

The difference is not at all insignificant; I used several dozen test configurations on my own, and the minimum average dps gain (per single variable optimized) was slightly under 3%. Several of my rogue buddies (various gear levels) saw total gains of 4-9% dps simply by following the above approach and optimizing one or two gear slots relative to their weapon speed/vice versa. (This is most significant because it's not an obvious concept - iLvl becomes a less-useful general benchmark to choose between two seemingly-similar gear options--which simply have different mechanics--for a given slot, etc.).

An example situation: you have a trinket which, when equipped, provides you with a passive +2.2% dps (averaged over time). However, this trinket relies on a fixed % chance to proc and has an internal cooldown (Group 1 effect) and you're using a fast weapon (Group 2 weapon); in this instance, assuming the total DPS contribution of all Group 1 effects is less than the sum DPS contribution of the Group 2 effects you have equipped, you would see a dps gain by equipping a slower weapon. If this trinket was the ONLY effect which you had equipped from either Group 1 or Group 2, you would definitely see a DPS gain by equipping a slower weapon.

In other words, your choice of weapon speed in controlled combat, with HaT, should factor in which crit-capable procs you have equipped, your crit rate for those procs, and particularly which poison you're wielding. This of course means that the value of certain items, (particularly trinkets), enchants and even crit rating will vary significantly depending on the speed of your weapons if you have HaT talented. Hopefully, soon someone with more patience than myself will come up with a comprehensive equation to add this to current rogue dps spreadsheets, as none of them that I've seen currently account for this.

The actual HaT component inherent in any gains from weapon speed optimization are ultimately less significant than the actual optimization itself, but I'm one of those weirdos who loves to crunch numbers, and I thought it was worth mentioning.

Comment by 242777

As of 3.3.3 this talent appears to be bugged. Here is a video showing the bug;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHilJLhgUOE

Comment by 582434

Now i see 5rogues doing arena all 5 sub if have xtra, 5 in assassination for crit so deadliness 10% AP
master of sub 10% dmg
imp abmush 50% crit
waylay to make sure som1 dont get away
shadow step same reason as waylay
and HONOR AMONG THIEVES explains itself
put glyphed tricks of the trade for imp dmg on everybody
glyphed FoK for increase dmg
put ur choice of poison as long as there is 1 of deadly,instant,crippling,mind and wound for any class well since theres only 5poisons 2 of each. You will FoK the crap out of them
you can do this with any tree talent ur goal is to gather them around increase dmg and survive. once all 5 are close enough sap them all

Assassination-https://www.wowhead.com/cata/talent#fMxfoego0rsIuho0xVbZcbd
Combat-https://www.wowhead.com/cata/talent#fhxboxZGxAbMf0oMubgRt
Sublety-https://www.wowhead.com/cata/talent#f0xbZZcbfdIGdbAuAfRp
ull need glyph of evasion,FoK and CoS in my opinion do what u want dont have to be all the same talent.
idk the average dmg of a double crit on FoK but lets say its atleast 2500 ull want cold blood, k all cold blood then TotT then FoK for atleast 2500 so thats 12500 at the cost of 50energy each 25000 at 100energy each with overkill u can get a 3rd without waiting that long and i wasnt including poison nor TotT increase dmg with those numbers

Comment by Azerano

Seems to be bugged as of 4.0.1 as it ignores the 2 second cooldown and just keeps flailing CPs at you. Also, never liked this talent as it(to me) feels like it's something someone decided to just throw in there in order to make sub a viable specc.

Comment by Teelie

Does the 5% crit buff you aswell, or is it just the raid/party?

Also, don't you get a CP when you crit with white attacks? I got 1/3 and I critted for over 15 times now vs 3 mobs where I just attacked them with whitehits, no special abilities, but I still didn't get any CP's.

Also, It's weird how it says "Critical hit chance increased by 5%" as tooltip when my friends got the buff, as it only affects ranged and melee (at least it says that on the talent tooltip). Can anyone explain to me how it really is?

Comment by yesya

4.0 rogues stay away from this talent - currently broken.
If your party member crits on some other target than yours, it will wipe your combo points on your target and give you one point on your party member's target.

e.g. if a boomkin crits on hunter's pet in his unfathomable hatred for dogs, you will lose all your combo points on the hunter, and gain one on his pet.

5% crit works raid wide however.

Comment by 431936

Isn't this a reference to Sly 3: Honor Among Thieves?

Comment by Zarac

4.0.1 Buffs Map

Str, Agi, Sta, Int
Druid Mark of the Wild, Hunter (Shale Spider) Embrace of the Shale Spider, Paladin Blessing of Kings
Stm
Hunter (Silithid) Qiraji Fortitude, Priest Power Word: Fortitude, Warlock (Summon Imp) Blood Pact, Warrior Commanding Shout
Mana
Mage Arcane Brilliance/Dalaran Brilliance, Warlock (Summon Felhunter) Fel Intelligence
Str + Agi
Death Knight Horn of Winter, Hunter (Cat/Spirit Beast) Roar of Courage, Shaman Strength of Earth Totem, Warrior Battle Shout

Haste
Hunter (Core Hound) Ancient Hysteria, Mage Time Warp, Shaman Bloodlust/Heroism
Mp5
Paladin Blessing of Might, Shaman Mana Spring Totem, Warlock (Summon Felhunter) Fel Intelligence
10% Attack Power
Death Knight (Blood) Abomination's Might, Hunter (Marksmanship) Trueshot Aura, Paladin Blessing of Might, Shaman (Enhancement) Unleashed Rage
6% Spell Power
Mage Arcane Brilliance/Dalaran Brilliance, Shaman Flametongue Totem
10% Spell Power
Shaman (Elemental) Totemic Wrath, Warlock (Demonology) Demonic Pact
5% Spell Haste
Druid (Balance) Moonkin Aura, Priest (Shadow) Mind Quickening, Shaman Wrath of Air Totem
10% Melee/Ranged Attack Speed
Hunter (Survival) Hunting Party, Death Knight (Frost) Improved Icy Talons, Shaman Windfury Totem
5% Critical Strike
Druid (Feral) Leader of the Pack, Hunter (Devilsaur/Wolf) Terrifying Roar/Furious Howl, Rogue (Subtlety) Honor Among Thieves, Shaman (Elemental) Elemental Oath, Warrior (Fury) Rampage

added some spells, thx Halpfanx, Donnis, Cialbi, Zhell, steelsage, AnrDaemon, Tyroh, Janitaur | added awesome item icons

Comment by 77880

Does this talent shows a buff? cos mine doesnt show anything

Comment by 718763

this talent is really really good! it can even proc from your own crits i checked it...
u can get 5 combo points in 10 seconds if maxed, and no need to waste energy for them! good talent.

Comment by parazyte

Wall of text

Your point was?

Comment by Ymirjarik

Funny enough, crits from this are generated outside of combat or even pre-combat situations, i've sat and stared (auto-target) some of the ogre's in DM, the heals was criting CP's for me, so you can generally build up 5cp's before fights even start for max SnD or maybe Rupture if you're bored.

Comment by Chakotay

This talent also triggers off the Hemorrhage bleed crits, I'm guessing it procs of all non-white crits.

Comment by 836907

greatest pvp talent ever, just ensure you constantly have an enemy player targetted when between fights and you'll have a free recuperate constantly

Comment by 867036

Excuse me if I'm wrong, I'm not exactly an expert on the mechanics but couldn't you build a 25-man raid with tankbears, sub rogues, ele shams and such to hit 100% crit?
I'm not saying it's a good idea, but what happens if you do?

Comment by 852431

i reckon most CP from this will be from your healer, since th e y a ll h av e in sa ne crit rates.
(i listed both effects that increase crit chance (obviously) and things that proc off crits, because these will make the player gear for hit)

Comment by 168437

Took me a while to figure out that the icon is actually three gloved fists with daggers doing a 'brofist' over some yellow light thing.

Comment by Blunttman

As of patch 4.3 the crit from this spell stacks the more rogues you have.

Comment by Tatsuo111

Does not seem to work in WOTLK classic at all.

Links

Honor Among Thieves

Honor Among Thieves

Talent

Increases the critical strike chance of all party and raid members by 5%. When any player in your party or raid critically hits with a spell or ability, you have a 100% chance to gain a combo point on your current target. This effect cannot occur more than once every 2 seconds.

(2s cooldown)

Buff

Spell Details

Duration

n/a

School

Physical

Mechanic

n/a

Dispel type

n/a

GCD category

n/a

Cost

None

Range

0 yards (Self)

Cast time

Instant

Cooldown

n/a

GCD

0 seconds

Aura proc chance

100%

Effect #1

Apply Area Aura: Dummy
Value: 101
Radius: 100 yards
PVP Multiplier: 1
Server-side script

Effect #2

Apply Area Aura: Mod Crit Chance % - All
Value: 6%
Radius: 100 yards
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

	Backstab		Hemorrhage

Effect #3

Apply Aura: Modifies Cooldown (11)
Value: -1.999 seconds
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

	Honor Among Thieves

Flags

Is Ability
Passive spell
Cast time is hidden
Can only target the player
Can Proc From Procs
Not In Spellbook
Allow Proc While Sitting
Not On Player Controlled NPC
Do Not Count For PvP Scoreboard
Target Procs On Caster
Log Passive

Honor Among Thieves

Buff

Spell Details

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