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Comment by 1909

Note that the mana refunded is from the cost of the Seal, not the Judgement. Taking this talent, therefore, makes it so you only have to pay the minuscule cost of Judgement. This provides a nice boost to mana efficiency, and when combined with Benediction your mana will almost never be empty, assuming you use it wisely with your other abilities.

Comment by frmorrison

In the 2.3.2 patch, this abilty will return 80% of the seal's cost instead of 50%.

Ret Pallys (without raid buffs) usually have to grind with rank 1 SoC, but with this new buff a higher rank will be usable.

Comment by Wedmark

Mana costs at 70 highest ranks.

Seal of Command - 238 mana
Judgement - 124mana

Refunding 2.3 and 2.3.2

50% of 238 is 119
80% of 238 is 190.4

In 2.3.2 it will take 71.4 mana less to cast Judgement of Command.

Comment by Twan

Paladins should now use Judgement every time it's ready as it will actually refund mana (not counting the mana it took to cast the actual Seal spell).
After the Seal is cast and the mana is used, you'll actually regain about 75 for Judging it (using SoC ofc). Pretty Sweet

Comment by camarouge

If you use the Libram, there is also a chance to get the proc of https://www.wowhead.com/cata/item=33503 each time you use JoC, another incentive to judge as often as possible.

Comment by Garrum

I have a bad feeling that in a raid setting, the targets of the mana will be random, and that means that at least some of the time, the paladin will get none back. We have enough issues with mana that we didn't need to lose our other mana conservation tool, especially with blizzard's talk of having DKs, Wars, and Paladins share all gear, which means no intellect on any of it. You might be able to get away with it in PvE, but theres absolutely no way for that to fly in PvP.

There's also the issue of it only affecting damaging judgements, which makes it terrible for PvP, as you end up judging justice far more often that you judge command. So we lose the mana that we were getting back previously. Now we run out of mana even faster in PvP. Yay.

Comment by Ayei

New change, probably nerf for solo and pvp:

Judgements of the Wise: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on Judging.

Replenishment: Each time they trigger the mana regeneration effect, 10 people in their raid group will receive a buff which causes them to regenerate 0.5% of their maximum mana each second.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336665205&sid=2000&pageNo=1

Comment by Ronark

mangostuff

You will only have A CHANCE to get this mediocre buff.

Judgements of the Wise (Tier 6) changed to: Your Judgement spells have a 33/66/100% chance to grant up to 10 party or raid members mana regeneration equal to 0.5% of their maximum mana per second.

Comment by 150164

"Ronark" said

"mangostuff" said:
You will only have A CHANCE to get this mediocre buff.

Judgements of the Wise (Tier 6) changed to: Your Judgement spells have a 33/66/100% chance to grant up to 10 party or raid members mana regeneration equal to 0.5% of their maximum mana per second.

"up to 10 party or raid members"

Yes there is a 100% chance to give out this buff, but it is not a 100% chance you will get it.

Comment by Athene

- The buff lasts for 15 seconds (I'm in the beta and just tested it).
- With 3 points in the talent, 10 people in a raid will get the buff every 8 seconds. In any instance or 10 man raid, this means that the whole party\raid will have a constant mana regen of 0.5% their total mana every sec through all fights.
- With a duration of 15 seconds, that's 7,5% of a player's total mana with every judge. But because you will judge every 8 seconds, it will really only replenish 4% per judge.
- All gear made for retris in WotLK is "warrgear", it's pure strength and crit rating, no int. At lvl71 I have about 4'000 base mana, so the buff will give about 20 mana per sec. It replenishes at half the rate of Blessing of Wisdom, and with 8 ticks per judge it will just barely recover the judge cost.

Our new DPS cycle requires alot of mana. We now have the new DS, Consecration deals decent damage with the new AP scaling, Avenging Wrath has reduced cooldown and gives no debuff, and Hammer of Wrath is alot more effective than before. They will all be part of your standard DPS cycle in WotLK, and they all need mana.
However, we have an insane Seal of Wisdom! Seal of Wisdom now scales with AP, it returns alot more mana than before, it proccs very often, and nobody else in the raid can benefit from it.
When I kill tough mobs in the beta, I usually seal some DPS seal and fill all my mana before I go. I DPS untill I'm at about 30% mana, then seal Wisdom and continue. My mana fills up, and then if I need health I switch to SoL, otherwise switch back to DPS seal.
Using SoW all the time is overkill and only reduces your DPS, but you will quickly realize how powerful SoW has become in WotLK.
Judgements of the Wise is a raid-support talent. You specc it if you raid, otherwise you specc something else.

Comment by 175580

One:
Hunters now use Aspect of the Viper which nerfs their damage by 50% to return 100% of the damage dealt as mana. Enh Shamans are being told by developers that they have Water Shield to assist with mana issues, and to use it instead of Lightning Shield when they PvP to aid with mana problems.

If you truly believe temporary nerfing of your DPS for temporary mana efficiency is flawed design -- Obviously Blizzard has a lot of flawed design going around for other classes as well.

Two:
Seal of Wisdom is 4% of total mana with 4 sec internal CD and Judgement of Wisdom is 2% of total mana on every swing. Between JoTW and SoW, between every Judgement (8 sec talented) you are regenerating 4% mana from JoTW and 4% - 6% from JoW for 8% - 10% of your total mana every 8 seconds. If you are up against mana drainers or find yourself low on mana, keep SoW up for an additional 8% of your total mana regenerated between Judgements.

Three:
Ret Paladins won't have any mana problems in a PvE setting when the entire raid is getting approximately 200 - 300 MP5 just from raid wide buffs / mana battery classes. In PvP, I've done up to 1700 just to get Guardians Boots/Bracers for my Paladin and mana was quite the issue.

While, the old JoTW basically accounted for an unlimited mana supply and scaled wonderfully with gear -- The fact that it was so infinite is what made it rather unbalanced. A hybrids only limitation to power is the number of times he is able to adapt in a PvP environment -- This is restricted by mana & JotW was granting unlimited mana thus unlimited power.

Today, I watched a video of a Ret Paladin doing a DPS test on bugged mobs in Blasted Lands. She went all out for 2 min of straight spam in a PvE DPS rotation before she ran OOM. 120 seconds of a DPS rotation is quite different than that of a PvP engagement.

She wouldn't have run OOM in a raid environment, but at least solo she couldn't do what other Ret Paladins are were doing -- soloing the first couple of bosses in some of the higher level dungeons & soloing 5-man outdoor elite bosses which shouldn't be soloable. JotW granting them unlimited mana to heal themselves along with DPS was what made this possible, not the "OP" damage all the QQers are saying they're putting out when everyone is putting out rather amazing numbers.

In PvP, JoTW lasts 15 sec... I suggest if there is a possibility of mana problems you let this buff run its entire duration without doing additional judgements, this will help with efficiency. To fill this additional time, try to use utility heals with lower costs to expand the mana benefits per judgement.

In the end, as someone with a Paladin, I can say that I am very disappointed at the loss of old JotW. However, I completely understand why it had to be done based on videos I am seeing from beta. It isn't even about the damage, but simply the limitless sustainability of the Ret Paladin that currently makes him "overpowered". I'm not saying not to expect damage nerfs either, but I was expecting a change to JotW before live simply because of the unlimited mana it provided Ret Paladins in Beta.

At least this grants more mana overall than the old JotW would based on the number of mana users it hits in a raid.

Comment by 195896

Holy S***! If this is for EVERY judgement, then you seriously will NEVER run out of mana. 20% of you maximum mana? and if you have https://www.wowhead.com/cata/spell=25957 thats 20% of you max mana every 6 seconds... Retribution Paladins are going to kick some major arse.
Infinate Mana FTW!

Comment by 178943

*drooooooooool* 20% of mana every 6 seconds.....oh mi gawd. This is going to rock.

Comment by Ronark

Nerfed again, or a buff? Now grants 33% BASE mana... One could see it such a way that "I'm in Warrior gear, so 33% base mana is close to 33% total mana"; downside being that this does not stack with any Intellect at all, where the old version did.

Edit to change wording... note to self: don't add comments again at 2am :)

Comment by Ronark

I tested this on the PTR against target dummies without any armor or buffs on, and the only way I was able to run outta mana was when constantly using Consecration. Then again you shouldnt need to be using this as much, but when used in a raid setting you will be healed via SoBlood/Martyr kickback, which can be a lot when you start getting 2-3k Judgement crits (about 1k backfire damage).

Comment by Sherif

"immediately grant you 33% of your base mana."....Would someone kindly what does that mean ?...33% of the paladins base mana or just 33% of the mana cost of this ability ?

Comment by Sherif

Sorry for my latest question but i read somewhere that there another effect (judgement)That refunds 60% of the Judgement damage as mana....Which one is active now ?

Comment by 98852

It appears this has been hot-fixed to the current beta build of 15% base mana return as of October 29th.

Tool-tip still appears as 33%, but its returning a bit less than half of what it did the day before. I was getting about 900 mana returned, today its just over 400. Roughly the 15% stated in the latest beta build.

"To the ground, baby!"

Comment by anonymousSnowman

I didn't see this anywhere, though I may have missed it due to lack of sleep but does this work when you're alone and have no group?

Comment by toastmaster7727

I'm guessing that to get the 15% base mana regen EVERY time, you still have to spec this talent to its 3/3 maximum. I was a little confused with the wording because the tooltip makes it look like the proc chance only affects the replenishment effect and not the base mana regen. This question is strictly because I'm leveling a pally not because I'm a greedy 80 raider lol. I'll test around with it to confirm.

Confirmed.

Comment by 447902

applying Replenishment on self, or just paty/raid?

Comment by 452999

Mana battery, anyone?

Comment by Timty

This spell will be a lot more useful for Prot Paladins, since atm Divine Plea only gives 25% of mana back over 15 seconds, this one gives 40% over 10, so it will be easier to keep up the mana. Plus we will have divine plea as well incase we run out which most likely won't. We won't have to rush to the next mob either to keep Divine Plea up which will be nice for some newby healers and such.

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Judgements of the Wise

Judgements of the Wise

Talent

Using your Judgement ability grants you 30% of your base mana over 10 sec.

Spell Details

Duration

n/a

School

Physical

Mechanic

n/a

Dispel type

n/a

GCD category

n/a

Cost

None

Range

0 yards (Self)

Cast time

Instant

Cooldown

n/a

GCD

0 seconds

Aura proc chance

100%

Effect #1

Apply Aura: Dummy
Value: 61
PVP Multiplier: 1
Server-side script

Effect #2

Apply Aura: Modifies Cooldown (11)
Value: -1.499 seconds
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

	Crusader Strike		Hammer of the Righteous

Effect #3

Apply Aura: Mod Spell Hit Chance %
Value: 9%
PVP Multiplier: 1

Flags

Is Ability
Passive spell
Cast time is hidden
Can Proc From Procs
Can Proc From Suppressed Target Procs
Not In Spellbook Until Learned

Judgements of the Wise

Buff

Spell Details

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