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Comment by Hanos

Mutilate is a skill that will not really come into it's own until after level 60, the combination of Mutilate with Envenom and then higher ranks of Deadly Poison will make it a very powerful and versitile spec. I was playing around with it on the test realm, and on live last night, and it is great for dueling/PvP. The problem with it, is that it will not have the same level of sustained DPS that a combat spec will, due to the loss of Precision, Duel Wield Spec, Improved Backstab, and Dagger Spec.

That being said if you aren't willing to go Combat Daggers, or you are looking for a PvP Dagger Spec, try a Mutilate spec with some points in the poison talents.

Comment by Sebas

Many who use this talent feel underwhelmed at first, but don't be discouraged! You aren't really doing less damage than backstab. The numbers popping up on your screen may look smaller, but you must remember that there are TWO of them! Many people have respecced out of mutilate because they didn't THINK they were doing damage but they were.

If you put points into +% chance for poisons to be applied, there is almost always a poison on your target before your cheap shot ends. Because of this, your damage is increased by 50%. Here's a bit of an idea of what you can do to make mutilate do more damage:

Improved Poisons: increased chance of applying poisons help guarantee that your first mutilate will do +50% damage.

+50% damage

Opportunity: Mutilate damage increased by 20%

+70% damage

Find Weaknesses: 10% increased damage after a finishing move.

+80% damage (after a finisher)

Improved Kidney Shot: +9% increased damage after a kidney shot.

+89% damage (after KS)

you can also max out Lethality to increase the damage bonus of a critical strike with mutilate by 30%

Mutilate may still have trouble when fighting tanks, but it tears through cloth and leather like nothing.

Decent mutilate spec: https://www.wowhead.com/cata/talent=ihe0oxTsizVoZAM

Comment by pingzing

Having tried out Mutilate briefly myself, I am a big fan of it.
A few important things to know:

1.) You need to be DUAL-WIELDING daggers. A dagger in the main-hand and sword/mace/whatever in the offhand isn't gonna work.
2.) Poisons, poisons, poisons. If the enemy doesn't have a Poison debuff on them, Mutilate will do 50% less damage than if they were poisoned. For now, Deadly is ideal as it does damage nearly comparable to Instant, but breaks Gouge. Not a big deal in PvE, just wait for 70 energy until you Kidney Shot, but in PvP, consider a non-damaging poison.

3.) This is very gear dependent. You need two good, slow, high damage daggers for it to work well.

4.) It's damage is NOT as reliable as Backstab, as it's crit chance is not as high (with Imp Backstab, anyway) but both hands crit separately, so this makes getting 3 combo points with Seal Fate a very common thing. Combo point generation is so high that in a raiding environment you can get a 5-point Slice and Dice going, throw a Rupture and Eviscerate in there, and still have SnD up...without Imp SnD. So a good chunk of your damage will come from your specials.

5.) Mathematically, Opportunity is better than Dual-Wield Specialization for DPS. Spec that instead of going down Combat.

For the TLDR crowd: Dual wield daggers, slow high damage range ones, Deadly Poison for PvE, Crippling and Wound/MNumbing for PvP, lots of combo points, get Opportunity not Dual-Wield Spec.

Comment by 9635

Mutilate (Rank 3) vs. Backstab (Rank 9). This was directly taken from World of Ming and clarified in my own words. All percents are expressed as fractions (125% = 1.25). The AP is normalized for both due to the normalization that occurred in one of the previous patches because slow weapons hit too hard.

Take a minute to look at how it is formatted if you havent already. The damage is averaged for our purposes. MW is does not change for both backstab and mutilate. OW denotes the OFF HAND weapon damage.

Main Hand Weapon Damage (MW) = (Low End Weapon Damage + High End Weapon Damage) / 2 + (AP/14*1.7)

The MW times 1.5 + 225 is the normal backstab without any talents. The 1.2 multiplier is opportunity with 5 points (increases damage of backstab by 20%). Yielding the following for Backstab:

Backstab Before Crit Chance: (MW * 1.5 + 225) * 1.2 = 1.8 WD + 270

The next calculation is backstab with crit chance factored in to yield the average damage with Backstab. As you can see the first part of the formula is taken from the formula before crit (the one just above). This damage is doubled with a crit. The second part is given the 1.3 multiplier from lethality (30% extra damage on backstab crits). The .3 is the extra crit from imp backstab (30% increased backstab crit chance).

Backstab 9 After Crit Chance: (1.8 MW + 270) + (1.8 MW + 270) * 1.3 * (Crit +.3)

This is the mutilate portion of the formula. MH and OH are increased by 88 damage. The 1.2 comes again from opportunity (Adding 20% damage to mutilate). We assume that the target is poisoned (In raids it almost ALWAYS is and in PvP you should have poisons on). As you can see the formulas for MH and OH are the same:
MH Mutilate: (MW + 88) * 1.2 * 1.5 = 1.8 MW + 158
OH Mutilate: (OW + 88) * 1.2 * 1.5 = 1.8 OW + 158

Let%u2019s factor in average damage with crit:

MH Mutilate After Crit Chance: (1.8MW + 158) + (1.8MW + 158) * 1.3 * (Crit Chance)
OH Mutilate After Crit Chance: (1.8OW + 158) + (1.8OW + 158) * 1.3 * (Crit Chance)

Our total damage for mutilate is the two combined. Now if one were to calculate this out with dual GM daggers 1000 AP and 27% crit we would get the following:
Average Backstab: 1223.5
Average Mutilate: 1305
As you can see mutilate out performs backstab for the same amount of energy.

Now for my analysis with Perditions and AQ20 set dagger:
PvP It is awesome I tear almost anything apart with BWL/AQ40 gear. The CP generation is great (statistically better than hemo). Basically its: CS -> Mut -> KS -> Mutilate -> Gouge -> (optional) Mutilate -> Eviscerate. This works well as the mutilate is increased by find weakness and imp kidney shot. Posions are always up for me (I use crippling and mind numbing).

PvE It is awesome as well. I know a dagger rogue who hit 700-800 dps on faerlina in naxx whereas before he would be around 500 (he combat was swords). I have noticed that with full raid buffs this can hit together for nearly 3k damage. The CP rotation is basically just: Ambush -> Mut*(1-2) -> SnD -> Mut*(1-3) -> Evis -> etc. Works well as far as I saw in dps meters.

10 Notes:

1) Mutilate can only yield up to 3 combo points.
2) Backstab has an inherently higher crit rate because of talents.
3) Mutilates damage is increased by poisons.
4) This is AVERAGE damage, they can crit higher.
5) While backstab is better with +5 damage, mutilate is usually better with +15 agility as crit chance matters more to mutilate and backstab multipliers and crit are higher.
6) Cold blood only makes the main hand necessarily crit (save it for ambush unless need CP generation).
7) Both MH and OH have chance to proc trinkets, abilities and poisons.
8) Remorseless attacks applies to mutilate.
9) Mutilate from what I have seen is more gear dependent than the more weapon dependent move being backstab.
10) The dual wield hit reduction does not apply in mutilate as both attacks are considered special attacks.

I MAY HAVE MADE ERRORS (if so please tell me) (move topic to mutilate 3 please)

Comment by Ryjin

Mutilate is a very good skill with the proper gear. With 2 GM daggers I've seen it hit for over 2500 on clothies. That is pretty insane in my opinion.

Comment by Wakako

Great Ability And unless you are a Night elf Female rogue and hate not having an Animation for Mutilate You'll love it

Comment by dahehe

Mutilate for pve:
u can do 41/20/0 https://www.wowhead.com/cata/talent=wuxbogrsizVo0eV0bV
it can be altered more to ur liking it does more dmg constantly for pve as i've seen
say ur 41/0/20 or so and doing 1.3k and 600-700 mutilates as 41/20 u'll go from doing 1.3k/6 or so to more of 1.1k/1.1k it'll even out ur weapon hit/crits alot more

Comment by 66469

Even more notes :) :

It's not viable Arena skill/spec, use it to have fun if you like, not for Rating boost
It's better than Backstab/Combat, but if you have fast superior Offhand dagger - roll 15/41/5
41/20/0 only viable Multilate PvE spec with ~10% better dps (PvE!) than any variation of 41/0/5+
This build have complicated rotation in raid/group, which makes it one of the best wow specs for players who bored with 1-strike spamming:
Use finishing moovies with 4/5cp, with 3cp only if Find weakness fading (rare), Don't use finishings if you have less than 80 energy and both S'n'D and find Weakness up
You need to keep Slice'n'Dice, even if you have 1cp when it's fading
Use Rapture if you have more than 4 seconds on S'n'D, use Eviscerate if you have more than 6 seconds on both Rapture and S'n'D and more than 80 energy (rare). Don't use Rapture on Trash
No need to care about Find weakness if you going to renew S'n'D with next finishing
Don't focus on Find weakness, it's not that good, but notice: rogue who lost this buff during fight either noob or unreal unlucky
Using Multilate on targets that aren't poisoned yet still better than Shiv. Shiv is only nice when target was CC'ed, tank just picked it up and u have full energy. Opening will look like Shiv->Slice'n'Dice-> Multilate
Primary farm rotation is CheapShot-> Multilate->KidneyShot -> Multilate -> Eviscerate/Envenom + Sinister Strike if unlucky, since it doesn't require any food or bandages to use ever
Poisons are Deadly-x-2 or Instant+Deadly for farm, Anastesic+Deadly for group, Mindnumbling/Wound+Cripple for PvP
You can use Multilate with deadly poison even when solo - just wait for next tick of poison -> gouge -> miltilate. Gouge crit gives 2cp as well

Comment by daurenr

Average Backstab: 1223.5
Average Mutilate: 1305

but Mutilate suffers more from armor reduction, since:
MH Mutilate =1.8 MW + 158 - armor reduction
OH Mutilate = 1.8 OW + 158 - armor reduction

in raids Bosses have relatively high damage reduction

even when hitting clothies, armor reduction applies twice for Mutilate, which can make Backstab more appealing

Comment by Octinomos

5.) Mathematically, Opportunity is better than Dual-Wield Specialization for DPS. Spec that instead of going down Combat.

Could anybody confirm this ?

Main Hand Weapon Damage (MW) = (Low End Weapon Damage + High End Weapon Damage) / 2 + (AP/14*1.7)

Furthermore, are you sure about these calculations ? Are you sure it isn't (AP/14)*1.7 ?

Id love to see more mats about mutilate as so far I've found out it deals more damage maxing Dual wield spec than going 5/5 into opportunity.
I might be wrong (and I suppose I am) but I wouldn't like to respec for no gains.

After some probably inexact calculations I still have a doubt.

I didn't know if the damage reduction is applied multiplicatively or cumulatively, so I went for both options:

Cumulative: your Offhand with 5/5 dw spec does its full damage.
Multiplicative: your Offhand with 5/5 dw spec will deal (OW*0.5*1.5) = 0.75 OW

Thus you'll find yourself with this:
Cumulative: No offhand penalties will mean you're calculating your damage as if you had two MW

Multiplicative:
( MW + 88 ) * 1.5 = 1.5MW + 132
( 0.75OW + 88 ) *1.5 = 1.125OW + 132

Is this it? Where can I find more maths about Mutilate ?

Well, after having a look on EJ forums I found this out:

Originally Posted by Left View Post
Lets assume you have equal damage range weapons in both hands:

Mutilate -> DMG = (WeaponDmg + 101) + (WeaponDmg*0.5 + 101) = 1.5*WeaponDmg + 202
Mutilate w/ Opportunity -> DMG = ((WeaponDmg + 101) + (WeaponDmg*0.5 + 101))*1.2 = 1.8*WeaponDmg + 242
Mutilate w/ DW Spec -> DMG = (WeaponDmg + 101) + (WeaponDmg*0.5 + 101)*1.5 = 1.75*WeaponDmg + 252

Hope it helps.

Comment by 159584

50% from psns dosn't count.

Lethality : +30% dmg

Opportunity : 20%

Improved Kidney shot : +9% dmg

Find Weakness : +10% dmg

5p combo. Improved expose armor ( vs rogue ) :+ ~25% dmg

Buffs : BoM (220) BoK (~140 that's what my fullgladi/venge rogue gets) Battle shout (300) mark of wild not counted..
Unleased rage (140) Berserkers Call (360)

That equals 1160 ap, wich can be.. 20-25% more dmg?

that gives around 110% extra dmg,(-10% from resci) and with Full gladi gear and 2 shankers, 1400ap ,43/0/18 mutilate spcc, gives me the normal crits of 1.5k MH and 800 OH. if we add 110% on that, it will be ~3.1k MH and ~~1.7k OH. Nearly 5k. Critting on both is easy since you have coldblood, and remeber that you have 120 energy for doing two muti in a row, that could deal 10k in +2sec.

Now, i havn't counted a full vengeful rogue or t6, and this is possible, i've done 4.3k, with lesser lesser buffs and bladefists breadth, and aon't full venge o t6.

A clearly underrestimated spcc, and it's skillz and timing that makes you pwn with this spcc, not a passive Cheat death or 30sec evasion.

This spcc is definetly worth a try, and i've stucked with it from day1 :)

Chaytis Belf Rogue - Trollbane

Comment by 159584

Reply to Jeffeniqua ; Cold Blood DOES make BOTH MH and OH crit, it's worth to have in mid out there :)

Cheers

Comment by 159584

I can confirm that it's more worth getting Opportunity;
(20% + dmg on Mutilate, BS, Garrote, AND ambush)

Since dagger rogue, this gives WAY more than 50% OH dmg, since it's abilities that shout do the dmg, not the normal hits. On mages you never use cheapshot ( only in special cases )
so, 20% dmg on garrote (wich silence for 3 sec) or on ambush, is waaaay more worth. I've spccd from Dual Wield spz to Oportunity, really worth it :)

Comment by 38324

If both attacks crit doesn't mutilate generate 4 combo points? I mean what's the difference between critting with main hand only or both main and offhand?

Comment by 201585

As a mutilate rogue I am happy to tell that in the new WOTLK beta build 8905 mutilate rogues can have both dual wield specialization and opportunity! Mutilate FTW!

Here's the link to the new talents: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=

Comment by 164509

Don't switch to Assassination and then forget to LEARN OTHER RANKS. I walked around bgs for a week going: wtflol my damage sux. Then I went to the trainer and realized I had 3 more ranks to learn. I lol'd at myself.

Comment by 94367

by giving you the ability to use it not only from behind the target this doesn't mean that it will hit most of the times since chars tend to dodge and parry. however it's easier this way since you are fighting a warrior and he has cornered you with slow effect and can't reach to his back. i find this rather better than the old version where you had to stun/gouge or even blind to find an opening.
never the less is much better against mages since they blink stuns. just slow em and kill.

Comment by 58442

In an ideal situation, all melee should be attacking the back of their target to eliminate the chance to be parried. Requirement or not, it's a good idea.

Comment by 216650

Wouldn't it rock if you could do this move with dual swords

Comment by 287823

The best thing Blizzard done for Mutilate is that no longer requires you to be behind the target. Yea its not hard to get behind the target but it suX :)

Comment by veno3

This talent is getting modified in Patch 3.0.9

# Mutilate damage will now do 20% increased damage against poisoned targets, down from 50%.

Comment by 28478

So the cata beta version of this skill (Mutilate) is not listed as requiring daggers, as the live version (Mutilate) does. I wonder if this is intentional, or just a mistake in the tooltip, because frankly I'd love to run around mutilating with axes. They've shown they can balance abilities for different weapon types with Fan of Knives, after all, so the ability could easily be rebalanced so that using non-daggers gave you an advantage.

I understand that people have gotten used to assassination being a dagger tree, and I have no problem with using daggers for Mutilate. I just think it'd look freaking awesome attacking with two axes at the same time.

Comment by Sneetch

Leveling with daggers below 50 is now way easier thanks to this.

Comment by 582434

people forget, any % increase thing don't add, they are multiplied
instead of Assassin's Resolve+Opportunity+poison mutilate it's
x poison mutilate or whatever order it goes, same applies to dmg reduction

Comment by ercanrua

For what it's worth, there's currently (4.2.2) a Blizzard-acknowledged "display error" that shows Mutilate and Mutilate Off-hand as trainable in your Spellbook, but not actually available to you at your trainer. To be fixed in a future patch. Mentioned in the in-game Help as #8 in the Top Issues list.

I just noticed this on my level 11 Subtlety-spec'd Rogue; Mutilate being an Assassination-spec ability has no business being displayed for me.

Comment by elisimo

Thanks for the information that it's bugged. I can quit going to the trainers for now!

Comment by 891145

From the looks of 4.3, this may be a viable opener from Stealth

Comment by adamkade

I know that some of these idas are very good, but are they not a bit out of date. I mean crippling poision in assassination is it still good to have?

Comment by Thottbot

It's a pretty hand move to use cold blood on, you get crit on both weapons you use, 50 percent extra if yer target is poison and three combo points instead of the two, its a must for people who love their finishing moves.

Comment by Thottbot

if you read it, it is "req. daggerS"

Comment by Thottbot

Does mutiate (on average) do more damage than ambush or backstab? Mutilate seems kinda worthless to put that many points in if you can just get +damage and crit to ambush from the sub tier

Comment by Thottbot

Don't even compare Ambush with mutilate...notice you don't have to be in stealth to use mutilate. It is more or less like back stab but, with way more damage and adds 2 combo points instead of 1.

Comment by Thottbot

Any specc is a good PvP specc if you know how to use it. If you dont know how to use it, well then you will get pwnd. I'm mutilate specc and I've got 2x ced's and 2 pieces of 70 hwl and Helm of Assassination. The rest of my gear is greens mostly. And I dont have any of the problems you seem to have with Mutilate.

Comment by Thottbot

ok, whoever said that crap about mutilate not being able to get through plate, i play a 69 rogue *currently* that is 41/13/5 and one of my friends is FULL prot, 12k armor lvl 70. I literally DESTROY him... no... SLAUGHTER him with mutilate, and before you criticize and say *then he wasnt a very good pvper* or w/e, he's got 4 peices of the arena set and the rest of his armor is the bold set. personally i think its pretty good. Mutilate + crippling poison + deadly/wound = dead player. now hunters... i'm working on that =\ lol. neways, mutilate is a very good pvp arena (BGs dont do so great cause it sucks when you're getting mobbed) and instance spec. i havent tried raiding, but i think hemo spec is good for raiding if you have dual swords or maces *right?*

-Lavendereyes 69 Nelf rogue

ah and my edit, people saying mutilate isnt great damage, you can just screw off. mutilate isnt made for damage its made for combo points, assasination is using FINISHING MOVES AADUUURRR!
so if you love using your combo points for heavy killing blows and want to get those quicker *WHILE* getting some alright dps in while doing so, mutilate is a worthy investment. backstab is ok for damage but the real damage for asas rogues is in the finishing moves. ~zomg eye opener huh?~
backstab cannot give the combo points mutilate does. and with poisons mutilate can do about twice the damage of backstab and possibly if you invest your points right, give you 3 combo points. so BAM come out of stealth with a cheapshot and mutilate crit, hit cold blood and eviscerate = instant 3k hit. not to mention all that can be done in 4 - 5 seconds. you tell me if thats not great pvp ^^

Comment by Thottbot

All you're comments are quite valid. All of you. Honestly though, none of you can deny this point. It's really hard to find a good ol' One Vs. One battle that us rogues are meant for in PvP. You'll always find larger groups of alli/horde that we can't deal with as well as other classes. If you do find a one vs. one battle, it all depends on your playing style. If you like to finish things quickly, go with the mutilate strategy. If you like scaring the other player and brining honor the the awesomeness that is the rogue class, go with the Shadowstep strategy. The bottom line is, though, you'll have problems making good use of these in any way in PvP because of the aforementioned "group conflict" trend that has taken over WoW. If you like taking part in these group conflicts, you most likely won't be attacked until much later in the fight; other cloth classes like mages & priests will be the first to go. Anyway, in these group battles, you might as well go mutilate the heck out of the <insert faction you hate here>, and then finish 'em off quickly. Shadowstep is for the more traditional 1 vs. 1 rouge battles. Once again, this is all personal preference.... With that I take my leave.

Comment by Thottbot

I. . .hate. . mutilate
I was crit for 3k, Im just like wtf just happened
Just came on here to see what exactly it did. . .now I see why it hit so hard, I had two poisons on and he must have used cb

Comment by Thottbot

hey u guys mutilate has to be better than backstab... i mean just think about it... u spend 41 points into assasination for nothing? i doubt it. mutilate has to be some what good.

Comment by Thottbot

xD Im loving the way most of you rogues whine and pick fights with yourselves as much as others. :)
Quite a few good points and strategies, except for the fact most posts start with "your all wrong you n00bs/idiots" or "l2p". Did it never occur to you that its a strategy? Strategies rarely work out as you want in combat, especially more then once. :)
Mutilate is a useful skill, for the combo points and poisons. It applies both fast and in one go. With the proper talents it can boost both. Depending on who/what you're fighting determines when and how its used. So stop whining about how the other rogue is a moron?
Dumb hunters are called %^&*!@#s. Dumb rogues are called rouges (yes, its not a noun in reality, tell that to the idiots who call them that). :P And I've only ever met a SINGLE rogue on Lightbringer who wasn't an utter assh*le, so guys, try and surprise me :)

Comment by Thottbot

Calculating basic damage:

{*+101}+{*0.5*}=Basic Damage Output(BDO);

Damage dealt if target is poisoned (has a rogue poison debuff on it):

BDO*1.5=DO(poisoned);

Crit damage:

BDO*2=DO(crit) or
DO(poisoned)*2=DO(poisoned,crit);(in case both attacks crit, if only one does, just multiply by Critbonus that hand's damage)

This is considering both attacks hit

Now let's say you have 70% chance to hit(including miss,dodge and parry events).Then:
∙Chance to hit with only one of the attacks(and get the combo points) is {100-(100-Hitchance)^2}%, in this case, 90%;
With any other ability that uses only one weapon(backstab,ambush) your chance to hit is 70%, and you get no damage done and get no combo points.
∙ However, chance to hit with both weapons is Hitchance^2/100, 49% in our case.

Cases of crit possibilities(considering a 30% crit chance):
∙Chance to have one attack crit: {100-(100-Critchance)^2}%. In our case it would mean a 51% chance to do bonus damage and get 3 combo points.
∙Chance to have both your attacks crit is Critchance^2. Meaning 10% in our case.

Talent Bonuses:
Lethalty, Improved Kidney Shot, Dagger Specialization and Find Weakness are must have for a mutilate spec.
As you quickly build up combo points from the first assault(Cheap Shot+Mutilate), you should use for a kidney shot, as soon as the Cheap Shot wears off. Timed right, you can get two more mutilate strikes in that Kidney Shot stun. This will give you +19% damage bonus. In case of a crit, you would deal 298%*BDO or 298%*DO(poisoned). Finish it all up with a Cold Blood + Envenom, and you've got a tone of damage dealt in 10 seconds, my friend.

Now let's calculate all that for two identical weapons of, let's say, 90 DPS, with 1.9 Speed(while ignoring the bonuses from your attack power).

BDO={90*1.9+101}+{90*0.5*1.9+101}=272+186.5=458.5;
DO(poisoned)=458.5*1.5=687.75;
Both hands crit(not in kidney shot):
DO(crit)=458.5*260%=1190.8
DO(poisoned,crit)=687.75*260%=1788.15
Both hands crit(in kidney shot):
DO(crit)=458.5*298%=1366.33
DO(poisoned,crit)=687.75*298%=2049.5

Add a finishing envenom Cold Blood crit of 3400 damage, and ...well, you get the point.

I hope this has been of help.

-Joegutter, E.U. Sylvanas PvP

Comment by Thottbot

IF i was to be 41 assassination and 20 combat, should it be worth putting 3 points in improved Gouge?

Comment by Thottbot

I like how S3 has offhands for mutilate specs. I wonder what the maximum hit would be...

Comment by Thottbot

Dylanlg, you're bad. Shadowstep WITH DAGGERS? I don't think so. ShS daggers is only good for killing scrubs with no resil at half health in bgs. That's it. ShS daggers in arena? Lol, have fun with your ambushes critting for 2k on targets with any hint of resil.

Comment by Thottbot

Hmm, i was bored at school in math class so i decided to do some mutilate number crunches comparing dagger with DW spec. Heres what i came up with:
(calcs done with 1500 ap, 30% crit chance 3/3 imp KS, 5/5 lethality,
find weekness, DW or dag spec noted below, relentless earthstorm
diamond (3% extra crit dmg) meta gem)

Weps: (~180 dmg/hit, 100 dps, 1.8 speed) x2

Dual Wield spec:
(180+(1500/14, extra damage on attacks)+101)=388
((180x.75)+(1500/14)+101)=343

388+343=731 x 1.1 (find weekness) x 1.09 (imp KS) = 876 no crit no poison
876 x 2.33 (crit/lethality/meta gem) = 2042 no poison
2042 x 1.5 = 3063 poisoned target crit

3063 x .3 = 919 average damage per mutilate (DW spec)

Dagger spec:
(look above for first wep)=388
((180/2)+(1500/14)+101)=298

388+298=686 x 1.1 x 1.09 = 823 no crit no poison
823 x 2.33 = 1916 no poison
1916 x 1.5 = 2875 poisoned target crit

2875 x .35 = 1006 average damage per mutilate (dagger spec)

**Dont trust me on order of implimenting extra damage bonuses (talents), not sure if the order is right which can cause a varied damage output

SO... DW spec: 3063 crit, Dag: 2875, gaining 188 crit mutilate damage
But.. DW spec: 919 avg damage, Dag: 1006, losing approx. 87 damage per
hit

So, DW = more damage on mutilate (and dont forget more white damage too) and Dag = more overall damage because of the higher crit chance (and of course increasing crit on everything else, whereas the only other ability that uses offhand damage is shiv)

Comment by Thottbot

With new 2.4.0 patch puncturing wounds now give mutilate an extra 15 % crit chance!

Comment by Thottbot

should i go mongoos in both or mongoos main 20agil off

Comment by Thottbot

hey, I`m really not sure whether mutilate requires two daggers or not cause i like to use fistie on off hand dagger on main and I was wondering when I hit lvl fifty will I have to go two daggers?
thanks all.

Comment by Thottbot

Mutilate doesn't have positional requirements anymore and benefits from both opportunity and dual wield spec which was made accessible by putting it into low combat tier.

I think mutilate/prep is THE spec for PvP in wrath.

Comment by Thottbot

Overview

* In the following theoretical calculation Mutilate Rank 4 is compared to Backstab Rank 10. The rogue is assumed to have full Seal Fate, Opportunity, Improved Backstab and Mutilate for comparison purposes.
* The Gladiator's Shanker is used in the main and offhand.
* The Rogue is assumed to have a 25% base Critical chance including talents and 1400 Attack Power.
* The imagined victim is assumed to have no Mitigation at all and is also assumed to be poisoned all the time.

Mutilate

Base Mainhand Damage: BMHD = WD + 101 = 435

Mainhand Damage = BMHD * Pois * Opp = 435 * 1.2 * 1.5 = 783
Mainhand Critical Damage = 783 * CritMult = 783 * 2.3 = 1800.9

Base Offhand Damage: BOHD = WD * OffPen + 101 * (1 + 0.1* Dual Wield Specialization Rank) = 334* 0.5 + 101 * 1 = 268

Offhand Damage = BOHD * Pois * Opp = 268 * 1.2 * 1.5 = 482.4
Offhand Critical Damage = 482 * CritMult = 482.4 * 2.3 = 1109.5

Chance For Each Possible Event:

Event 1: Mainhand Doesn't Crit AND Offhand Doesn't Crit = 0.75 * 0.75 = 0.5625
Event 2: Mainhand Crits And Offhand Doesn't Crit = 0.25 * 0.75 = 0.1875
Event 3: Mainhand Doesn't Crit and Offhand Crits = 0.75 * 0.25 = 0.1875
Event 4: Mainhand Crits and Offhand Crits = 0.25 * 0.25 = 0.0625

Damage For Event 1: 783 + 482.4 = 1265.4
Damage For Event 2: 1800.9 + 482.4 = 2283.3
Damage For Event 3: 783 + 1109.5 = 1892.5
Damage For Event 4: 1800.9 + 1109.5 = 2910.4

Average Mutilate Damage: 0.5625 * 1265 + 0.1875 * 2282.9 + 0.1875 * 1892.5 + 0.0625 * 2910.4 = 1676.65

Backstab

Non-Critical Damage = Opp * ((WD) * 1.5 + 255 ) = 1.2 * ((334) * 1.5 + 255) = 907.2
Critical Damage = 907.2 * 2.3 = 2086.6

Average Backstab Damage = 907.2 * (1 - BSCrit) + 2086.6 * (BSCrit) = 1555.8

Rogue hits mut 100 times and backstab 100 times =

Mutilate
Total Damage = 1676.65 * 100 = 167,665

Combo Points gained: 100 * (CP From Mutilate) + 100 * % of Events With A Single Crit
= 100 * 2 + 100 * (.1875 + .1875 + .0625) = 243.75 = 243

Backstab

Total Damage = 1555.8 * 100 = 155,580

Combo Points gained: 100 * (CP From Backstab) + 100 * BSCrit = 100 * 1 + 100 * .55 = 155

mutilate does 167,665 damage to the target and gives 243 combo points

backstab does 155,580 damage to the target and gives 155 combo points

Comment by Allakhazam

does it have to be a DoT poison, like crippling or Deadly, or does it for for Instant for like a few seconds or something? what makes a target 'poisoned'?

Comment by Allakhazam

This says trainable at lvl 40, but the talent tree on assassination depicts it is not available until lvl 50. Anyone explain this?

Comment by Allakhazam

do you need two DAGGERS for this move or is itpossible to use dagger+sword?

Comment by Allakhazam

this say it is trainable at lvl 40. But it is also offered on the talent tree of Assassination at lvl 50, can anyone explain?

Comment by Allakhazam

i am lvl 51 thief and i dont know how to get lvl 1...how do i get it?

Comment by Allakhazam

This talent definetly requires dagger in BOTH hands, no exceptions!

Any poison will trigger the 50% damage bonus, even if its the poison from another class (like the hunters poison sting).

The damage bonus will also be triggered if the poison is applied at the moment you strike with mutilate.

This ability owns but is sometimes very unstable. Both daggers can critically hit for up to 1400 dmg (on my lvl 62 rogue), while sometimes it only does around 250- 400 damage (that`s usually when your off hand weapon misses and you don`t critically hit and/or a poison isn`t applied).

Edited, May 19th 2008 11:43am by omgnoobrogue

Comment by Allakhazam

i am lvl 51 thief and i dont know how to get lvl 1...how do i get it?

Links

Mutilate

Mutilate	Level 85

Talent

60 Energy	Melee Range

Instant

Instantly attacks with both weapons for 75% weapon damage plus an additional 168 with each weapon. Awards 2 combo points.

Spell Details

Duration

n/a

School

Physical

Mechanic

n/a

Dispel type

n/a

GCD category

Normal

Cost

60 Energy

Range

5 yards (Combat)

Cast time

Instant

Cooldown

n/a

GCD

1 second

Effect #1

(Unknown Effect #328)
Value: 3
PVP Multiplier: 1

Effect #2

Trigger Spell

	Mutilate

Effect #3

Trigger Spell

	Mutilate Off-Hand

Flags

Is Ability
Cannot be used while shapeshifted
Do Not Sheath
Initiates Combat (Enabled Auto-Attack)
Discount Power On Miss
Initiate Combat Post-Cast (Enables Auto-Attack)
Requires main hand weapon
Suppress Caster Procs
Requires an off-hand weapon
Not In Spellbook Until Learned

Mutilate

Buff

Spell Details

Related

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